Originally by: Lady Skank

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Try chasing them off with a Bhaalgorn, they will either not engage at all or die if they do and its not like you don't have the ISK value of 5 recons and w/e else you have on the field.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Originally by: Common Origin

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Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05

When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.

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I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.

You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.

Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Originally by: Common Origin

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Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05

When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.

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I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.

You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.

Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.

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If the Mach wants to keep the bhaalg warp disrupted, it's got to fight in the bhaalg's neut and web range. So yea dead mach. Quit being stupid.

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Cause as we all know, mach pilots dont use Booster Alts and faction points that put them far outside web and neut range. Herp derp, of course they do. Even and overheated tech 2 point puts them outside web and neut range even worse with a faction point paired with a boosting alt.

The only one being stupid here is the name of the person quoted.

Again another person that has yet to fight actually fight a mach pilot.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:00:55

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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Again you are being as stupid as hell, anything a mach pilot would do, a bhaalg pilot would also do. I use the same boosting alts/faction modules, long range points on both my bhalg and Mach. Looks like you've not fought a good Bhaalg pilot. Herp Derp? ******.

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A Bhaal pilot getting extra range on a point wont help him neut and web the target 40km away. Sorry dude you fail at understanding the capabilities of the mods and ships involved.

Range of faction point with boost > web range with boost and range of neuts.

You guys just suck its not theory.

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A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?

Originally by: RougeOperator

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Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?

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You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.

Mach wins.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:21:10

Originally by: Korg Leaf

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Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 20:15:44

Originally by: RougeOperator

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Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?

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You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.

Mach wins.

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No I think he is pointing out that the Machariel needs an loki booster to have a chance of forcing an unboosted bhaalgorn off the field.

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No I was responding to the fact he said a Bhaal would have a booster as well. A MWD fit mach can keep range even when webbed by Bhaal. It can stay outside the 30km range of the bhaal with faction neuts. It gets a range bonus to webs not the speed killing bonus. Bhaals are very slow.

Show me the piles KMs of all the machs being killed by Bhaals.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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Show me the piles of KMs of Machs killng Bhaals. If it's coming down to a Mach's tank vs a bhaalg's tank, bhaalg is definitely going to win, especially since the bhaalg pilot is going to be fielding a slaveset. I think you'd have to admit that. A Mach's shield tank is dodgy at best with a nice increased sig radius.

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Clearly you dont PvP otherwise you would realize how stupid this post was. A Mach that can stay outside your neut range and has you pointed and can laugh at your attempts to close even double webbed if you are off gate your bhaal is dead. Bhaals are for taking out carriers. If you cant neut it you wont beat its tank 1v1. But lets not ignore the fact almost all fights are never 1v1. And a mach can go in kill things and GTFO.

Mach vs a gang = it kills a bunch of that gang and gets away
Bhaal vs a gang = it dies in a fire

I have a 6:1 k/d ratio and you have a 4:1, if youa re going to make lame comments, I'll make one back and say that I am a better pvper based on kills over 1k.

A double webbed Mach is dead vs a slaveset bhaalg no questions.
Not sure how you are even arguing this logically.

Originally by: RougeOperator

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Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 31/05/2011 20:49:08

I have a 6:1 k/d ratio and you have a 4:1, if youa re going to make lame comments, I'll make one back and say that I am a better pvper based on kills over 1k.

A double webbed Mach is dead vs a slaveset bhaalg no questions.
Not sure how you are even arguing this logically.

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You really want to brag about the fact you are a carebare engaging in highsec ganks and killing noobships and pods left and right. Anyone that looks at my KB vs yours can see you are full of it. Your Kill stats are the stuff on the bottom of someones shoe.

Come to lowsec Ill show you what pvp is.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:04:23

Originally by: Korg Leaf

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Double webbed mach with low grade snakes and a single nano goes 524m/s with heat.
A bhaalgorn goes 1175m/s with heat not sure how the mach dictates range there but im glad you admit that the mach cant point a bhaalgorn outside of its web range.

I havent had to theory craft that much, I have just repeated the same point for 6-7 posts whilst you stick your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand.

In the situation described in the OP a single bhaalgorn would solve his issue, which is why I believe they were mentioned in the first place.

And as for overpowered in some situations that would look like its the case, in others the machariel either gets butt ****d or runs

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Link the fit you are EFTing and implants used.

Cause its clear you went and used a booster and implants no one would use with a bhaal to get that speed. Or a fit no one would use just cause you hate losing the argument. And you made sure not to use the Optimal set up a Mach would use to make the lie about your point true.

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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LAWWWL I lived in syndicate and venal for three years you ignorant 4:1 ratioer. Go kill some more cormorants in belts.

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First 21 pages of your Kills are all high sec. Last time you were out there was in 08. Seems you couldnt hack it. You dont seem to have the experience with current changes to back up your crazy claims.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:31:24

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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You don't even have a BS kill on your most recent page. looking over your last30 kills its all t1 battlecruisers, caracals, and thrashers/coercers. You're trying to tell me you are some sort of elite pvp'er? just stfu.

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Yeah those are a whole bunch less dangerous then noob ships and capsules in high sec.

He mad!

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The only capsules I kill are from popped wartargets, you are bad at this. I've killed one noobship in the last 6 months. You are as bad at this as you are at theorycrafting.

Highsec wars are way more fun that lowsec. lowsec is boring and amateurish. as evidenced by your kills.

Originally by: RougeOperator

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Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 22:03:13

Originally by: Korg Leaf

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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quotes

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With a booster, low grades and a single nano you top out at 3600m/s overheated, this is all based the copy of eft I just downloaded from the forum.

Even if the mach was going over 5km/s it would still be slower than the triple plated bhaalgorn when double webbed. This bhaalgorn also has the range to start damaging the machariel from inside its web range (regardless of boosters) and has roughly 200k ehp(with low grade slaves and two plates) buffer you would need to chew through before it covers the 6-20km (depending on whether there are boosters involved or not) to get you into neut range then your tank disappears.

With a double plate and slaves the bhaalgorns tank is at roughly 201k ehp and 700dps with scorch, once it dual webs the Machariel its faster (the machariel would need to be faster than it can actually be to still be faster) then the Machariel would have to hope its tank holds long enough for it to chew through the Bhaalgorns buffer before the Bhaalgorn gets the Machariel into its Neut range, this could be anywhere from 6km to 20km but its still unlikely to happen.

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The mach gets to decide if he fights or not. He also has plenty of time to get away if webbed out to 50km and take shots at the bhaal to see how tough the tank is. He just warps off if its too tough.

Look Rep fleet warp diruptor has a 45 km rang boosted and over heated. While the Bhaal in the situation of jumping into the mach that isnt boosted has a range of 36 with its unboosted webs. It just dies.

But the point remains that the Bhaal could never solo it as the only way it can catch it is if something else ties down the mach so it can get in range. The Bhaal just is not the answer. The only answer is to blob the hell out of them while losing two or three ships in the process. Many times they still get away.

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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The only capsules I kill are from popped wartargets, you are bad at this. I've killed one noobship in the last 6 months. You are as bad at this as you are at theorycrafting.

Highsec wars are way more fun that lowsec. lowsec is boring and amateurish. as evidenced by your kills.

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You want to throw your hat into the ring in a discussion about PvP when you barley kill anything on a regular basis and its all Highsec kills against noobs. You have no right to be saying anything to anyone about PvP.

Also get your eyes checked you have two noob ship kills on your first page.

As for high sec, enjoy your missions carebear. Come to low sec when you get a chance to see amateur PvPers. We will be here waiting for you.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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Wardec me if you are any kind of a pvper, see how it goes. Are you blind in not seeing wormhole kills? Have you ever wardecced an alliance with a one man corp? Have you ever noticed that you spelt Rogue incorrectly? I'm guessing the answer is no to all three. With over 1000+ kills, I have EVERY right to comment on any pvp discussion whatsoever. Especially since the majority of my kills are solo, and VS expensive ships unlike your mutliple t1 BC kills/destroyer kills.

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Pure delusion.

I dont have to wardec you if you just come to low sec, ill make a note to shoot you when you do. OH right thats risky, cant have that.You gots to keep soloing mission runners right!

Yeah cheap stuff all those carrier and faction ship and t2 kills im on are cheap.

The ridiculousness of your comments is off the charts.

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Originally by: RougeOperator

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Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

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lol look who is mad. Listen, i'm not even kidding around, look at your kills, all t1 BC, and destroyers while i am solo killing golems abbadons and god knows what else. Proof is in the killmails dude. Not only that, but I dont think I see a single solo kill on there, you are too afraid to do it, zero balls.
I've done lowsec, i've done nullsec, and the sweetest tears are in empire. The noobs always want ships nerfed and whine about this and that. Don't know why i bother.

LAWL just checked BC, you fly prophecies and ravens. Holy horrible, no wonder you have no interaction with faction BS unless they are killing you. Do you even own one?

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If you look now you will see the POS We killed. Everyone will look and compare our KBs and laugh their asses off at what you are spewing.

You saying me killing BCs is somehow bad is funny as hell to anyone that actually does real PvP. You see Im no longer actually talking to you. Im talking to the audience that is reading your posts and following them as small as they may be. Since talking to is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

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Originally by: Asuka Smith

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You guys arguing that a Bhaalgorn is a good counter are using the exact same specious argument that was used to defend nanos as a whole back when they did the nano nerf.

People would say "well all you need is a rapier, so it's balanced", but that argument was specious because a nanogang could engage any target BUT a rapier, and could only be effectively engaged by a Rapier. That isn't balance.

A Machariel can engage ANY ship besides a Bhaalgorn, they go faster than most armor tanked HACs or hell most HACs in general, they can go around and stir up hell and completely demolish basically every single gang, and the only way to effectively counter them is to have a Bhaalgorn. Here is a thought, why would I be within web range of a Bhaalgorn? Why wouldn't I just avoid fighting any gang that has Bhaalgorn support? (I'm faster than their gang and their Bhaalgorn so unless I'm on grid in range of their bhaalgorn already it isn't going to kill me).

The Angel line is a throwback to the nano days and is basically totally OP.

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Originally by: Van Steiza

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Exactly if you made my Vindicator any more tanked nothing would kill it lmao.


Gosh guys read my post.

Im an actual solo Bhaalgorn pilot mostly and I know what its like.

Plust ive had experiance fighting machs with a host of ships as i said in my post.

There SO EASY to kill but people dont want to put in any effort they just want to be able to tackle them and hold them down easy and kill them.


Good luck with that everything in eve is not beige and the same ships have there advantages and there advantages are countered by other ships with different advantages.



Machariels are so easy to tackle and kill your only problem is that the majority of machariels do not fly solo and if your a solo pilot like me who likes to solo in his bhaalgorn you may get a minute or 2 before his gang arrives in which every time ive fought a machariel theyve gone down like a sack of poo as i said in my previous post but as always i end up jammed by support and having to disengage.

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Originally by: Hiroshima Jita

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What is this stuff about comparing a Machariel and a Bhaalgorn in combat?

A ship is overpowered if across a wide selection of common scenarios the ship would see it outperforms everything else with no trade offs.
The Machariel requires a scout.
The Machariel might be able to survive jumping into a hostile fleet.
The Machariel has damage projection out to 100 KM with AC and further with Arties.
The Machariel can be shield or armor tanked.
The Machariel when in combat and local spikes can probably run away because it engages far outside of web/scram ranges and can control the engagement rage against most things.
The Machariel in a fleet fight gone bad can probably warp out to the alignment point because it was likely very far off the enemy.
The Machariel solo (with a scout or alt) can take on most enemies but has to worry about fast tackle and a nearby blob.

Now for comparison
The Bhaalgorn requires a scout.
The Bhaalgorn will not survive jumping into a hostile fleet.
The Bhaalgorn has damage projection out to 50-60KM ? then switches to beam lasers.
The Bhaalgorn can be armor tanked but has one midslot for a shield tank. Its possible to shield tank a Bhaalgorn but it might not be a good idea.
The Bhaalgorn when in combat and local spikes had better hope that its 3 neuts cap out all enemies so it can warp. Its not unreasonable to hope this happens but its not a sure thing either and its going to be butt clenching for the Bhaalgorn.
The Bhaalgorn in a fleet fight gone bad is going to be tackled to **** and its going to die if it cant deagress/jump gate
The Bhaalgorn solo (with a scout or alt) can take on most enemies (including a Machariel dumb enough to fight it within 50km) but has to worry about heavy tackle and a nearby blob.

I see lots more Machariels than Bhaalgorns. I beleive the Machariel preforms better across more situations. Angel ships' combination of speed and damage projection is probably too much. CCP will get atound to Angels sometime. :CCP:

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Originally by: Vrabac

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Oh man so much pro faction bs pilot talk here. Only bhaalgorn I ever saw do anything pvp related besides killing cyno kestrel is... well, myself lol. And I'm not sure what sort of a cretin would a machariel have to be to die to a bhaalgorn. Maybe on test server if we agree to not get outside 30 km of each other? Even if we imagine they both jump gate in order to start close, the machariel can warp off way before bhaal can lock it. Unlike most of you I actually saw it happen a couple of times.

The problem with all those brilliant bring-a-bhaal and similar suggestions is that they assume the other guy is a ******. Reminds me of those old OMG WE CANT KILL A VAGABOND WHAT DO WE DO threads, when someone comes along and says "lol get a curse noob". Really now.

Angel ships are all op, however I'd say mach is the least op of the angel line in relation to other factions' counterparts. Yes, you could argue that both mach and vindicator have certain advantages over mach in certain situations. Nightmare is meh and rattlesnake is utter rubbish so i suppose including them into comparison is meaningless. But the mach/bhaal/vindi trio are in a very rough sense balanced out by their different ways of being good, although mach is imo still best all around.

As for the original post... if you have 2 falcons with minmatar jammers who can't jam 2 machariels you're really something special. But thats fine, good falcon is a dead falcon so my sympathies go to the machariels in your story. Hope you lost many ecm drones too.

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